“Do two walk together, unless they have agreed to meet?” (Amos 3:3)

Southern Baptist Pastor Rick Warren Continues His Praise Of Apostate Roman Catholicism

In our text above the Lord uses a rhetorical question designed to illicit the answer: “No, they do not.” I offer that what you’re about to see on the part of Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren speaks volumes. Now, beyond any shadow of a doubt  Warren is one of the most recognized pastors aligned with the Southern Baptist Convention, which is reputed to be the largest Protestant denomination in the United States.1

As a reader of Apprising Ministries you’d be familiar with the sinful ecumenicism of major figures associated with the SBC such as Billy Graham,2 the late Chuck Colson, quasi-elder Beth Moore and Warren himself.3 They are hardly alone; and nothing has been done by the SBC about their regularly referring to the apostate Church of Rome as a Christian organization.4 So, like me, you’re probably wondering what it is many in the SBC are actually protesting in regard to the Roman Catholic Church; could it be as simple that the RCC isn’t giving to its prized Cooperative Program?

You may recall I’ve shown you, e.g. in Rick Warren And Teachings Of Demons, that for years now Warren’s really been leading this charge within evangelicalism for full Christian fellowship to be restored completely to the RCC. Like it, or not, in addition to being a highly influential pastor within the SBC—Rick Warren truly is a leading spokesman before the world for the mainstream evangelical section of the visible Christian church as well.

With this in mind then, I’m going to remind you that the video clip following below is actually Part Two of an interview with the sinfully ecumenical Warren, which was done by Raymond Arroyo, host of  The World Over program of the Roman Catholic Eternal World Television Network (EWTN). It originally aired on on EWTN April 13th and 14th of this year.

You can see below how Rick Warren ended up letting himself be used by EWTN over at their Facebook page while announcing the upcoming segment featuring Warren with EWTN’s Raymond Arroyo, a devout Roman Catholic:


Warren as the “ecumenical man of faith” is a pathetic witness for a supposed Christian minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Now I realize you may have already seen this interview; however, you haven’t seen the transcript, which follows after the video. It reveals a veritable avalanche of apostasy on the part of SBC megachurch prophet-pastor,5 and Evangelical Ecumenical Magisterium mentor,6 Rick Warren:

Raymond Arroyo voice over: Why is the vatican visiting this evangelical church? Founder and pastor of Saddleback, Rick Warren, joins for Part Two of our exclusive interview.

Arroyo: The World Over live, begins, right now.

[Show opening]

Female announcer voice over: Now, once again, Raymond Arroyo.

Arroyo: Welcome to The World Over live. Following the death of his son, Rick Warren has focused part of his ministry on mental health, leading to a collaboration with the Catholic Dioceses of Orange County as we reported last week. In the second part of our exclusive interview, Warren discusses the origins of his best-selling book, The Purpose Driven Life, a recent visit by a Vatican delegation, and the channel he finds himself watching more than any other. Here’s my conversation with Rick Warren.

Arroyo: The Purpose Driven Life is the best-selling book [Rick Warren: Yeah.] in the world36 million+ copies, it’s been translated more than any book except the Bible

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: What is the key to that success? Why were so many people touched by that book and continue to be?

Warren: You know, Ray—there’s not a single new thought in Purpose Driven Life that hadn’t been said for 2,000 (Arroyo laughs) years. I just said it in a fresh way. I said it in a simple way. When I was writing Purpose Driven Life, it took me seven months, 12 hours a day. I’d get up at 4:30 in the morning, I’d go to a little study; start at 5am, I was fasting till noon; and I would light some candles, and I would start writing and re-write, re-write, re-write and re-write. And one of the things I did before I wrote the book was umI asked the question, “How do you write a book that lasts 500 years”?

For instance, um, Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis

Arroyo: Right.

Warren: Uh, Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence.

Arroyo: (smiles and nods approvingly)

Warren: Okay, The Desert Fathers, St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avilaall of these great, classic devotional works; and one of themI just realized that in order to be timeless you have to be eternal.

Arroyo: What is your secret to reaching people every day

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Every week

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Not only in your writing, but when you speak to them

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: What is it; what is this communication gift, if you willif you could decode it, because a lot

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: A lot of preachers would like to know.

Warren: (Laughs). Well, Jesus said, “I’ll make you fishers of men,” and I liked this fishing motif. Um, and I think the first thing is you have to go where the fish are. Okay, they’re not in church, you gotta go into the marketplace. Uh, you gotta learn to think like a fish. (Arroyo laughs) Uh, you got to know what they like to eat. You gotta drop thethe bait at rightthe right level. Ah, youyou use all kinds ofPaul says, “I become all things to all men that—I’m in some ways might save some.” So, he says, “When I’m with Jews, I become like a Jew, to reach Jews. When I’m with Gentiles, I become like [a] Gentile, to reach Gentiles.” Today he’d say, when I’m in California, I become a Californian, to reach Californians.

Arroyo: I should have left the tie at home; is that what you’re saying, Rick?

Warren: (Laughs) Yeah, right. Welland the main thing is love always reaches people. Itauthenticity, humilityPope Francis is the perfect example of this. He is, uh, he is doing everything right. You see, people will listen to what we say, if they like what they see.

Arroyo: See.

Warren: Andasasour new Pope he was very, very symbolic in, you know, in his first Mass with people with AIDS. Ah, his—his kissing ofofthis deformed man, his loving the children, this authenticity, this humility, the caring for the poor; this is what the whole world expects Christians to do. And when wewhen they go, “Oh, that’s what a Christian does.” In fact, there was a headline here in Orange Countyand I loved the headlineI saved it. It said, “If you love Pope Francis, you’ll love Jesus.” (Laughs)

Arroyo: (Laughs) That was a headline?

Warren: That was a headline! It was the headline. I saved it; I showed it to a group of priests that I was speaking to a while back.

Arroyo: I love that! I wanna take you back a little bit before we talk about your ministry.

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: Things you’re doing, and have been doing, and the example it has set for so many. Tell me about Jimmy and Dot Warren

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: And how you see them

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: The librarian and the Baptist minister

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: Reflected in your life now, and in your work, now.

Warren: Well, my parents were very general, gentle, humble, poor people, theythey did not have a whole lot of money. Uh, we were in rural churchesmy dad never pastored a church of more than about 150 people. They were very, very generous people, loving people, and they really taught memy dad taught me how to get along with eitherah, aahahaha drunk on the side of the street or a king. Hehe could be as comfortable with a pauper or with a politician.

Arroyo: And your mother taught you a love of things written.

Warren: She did. My mother was a librarian and, prior to that, she was a bookstore manager at a seminary. And so, as a bookstore manager, she would get a free copy of each of the booksmy dad had a pretty good sized library. And when I was ordained my dad gave meI think, um, three or four thousand volumes himself. I began collecting books at 14. I use to read a book a day. I read a book a day for many years. Today, I probably have 35,000 volumes in my library.

Arroyo: II want a peek at that library

Warren: I want you to see it

Arroyo: One of these days. Ah, I want to talk about you and Kay. Your wife Kay

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: For a moment. In reading her book, I was kind of surprised by this

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: She talks about both you, and sheafter now 40 years of marriagejust about, right?

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Uh, that when you first met, you all were not really attracted to each other.

Warren: Not at all.

Arroyo: What was it then that caused this marriage, she called those early years, “awful.”

Warren: WARREN:(Laughs) Well, uh, I won’t say that our honeymoon was “hell on earth”


Warren: WARREN:It was pretty difficult. My.my wife and I are the exact opposite in every, cell of our bodies except our love for Christ and our love for—for each other. And we were in love, but in early years we just didn’t get along. And what happened was, uh, Kay and I got engaged and right after we got engaged, uh, I moved to Japan as a short term missionary to help plant a church in Nagasaki, Japan. She moved to Birmingham, Alabama to work in an inner-city, uh, multi-racial church and so we were apart the entire uh, engagement. ItitI would never tell anybody to do what we did. So when we got married, it was like we were in love, but now, “Who are you?”


Warren: WARREN:And so

Arroyo: “You would be?”— 

Warren: WARREN:   All the things we needed to work out in early marriage, or in early, uh. dating, we had to work out in early marriage and, ah

Arroyo: Well, Rick you allshe was dating your friend. You all weren’t even attracted to each other

Warren: No.

Arroyo: You felt that it was a sort of, a divine call?

Warren: Oh yeah, it was. In fact, um, I’ll never forgetI was actually speaking in her father’s church. She was playing the piano, my best friend was leading , ah, worship music. And I remember sitting there on stage getting ready to speak and I looked over her and clearly, aa voice in my mindI mean it wasn’t audiblebut it could have been audible; it was as clear an’ said, “You’re gonna marry that girl.” Now, I immediately doubted that for three reasons. Number one, God has never spoken to me that clearly before or sinceever. Okay; it was that clear. Second, I wasn’t in love with her; and third, she was in love with my best friend. So after God said that to me, I—I just filed that away and made no attempt toto even date her. And, ah, we’re going to the same Christian collegewhen school started again in the fall, um, I had a prayer partner, whoevery morning at 5am we would get up and go out to the baseball dugout and we would pray from 5-6am every day—and we never missed a day for a year.

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: One day, several months into thatin the middle of a prayerDanny stops and he says, “Rick, you’re gonna think this is strange, but, I have this sensation that you’re gonna marry Kay Lewis.” And I said, “Well, don’t worry about that, God told me that five months ago,” and we jus—just keep on praying.

Arroyo: (Laughs)

Warren: And, and, it’s a long story, but

Arroyo: And so it would be

Warren: We ended up together, and we’rewe’re now 38 years in marriagemy wife is my best friend. I’m hopelessly in love with her.

Arroyo: I—I came across something that I found remarkable

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Particularly given you, and Kay’s, success over the yearsthe growth of Saddleback; 22,000 people in this congregation

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: You give—your-sa—when The Purpose Driven Life hit, you gave your salary back

Warren: Exactly—

Arroyo: Not only for that yearbut for 25 years.

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: You do something called “reverse tithing”

Warren: Reverse tithing

Arroyo: What is that?

Warren: When Kay and I got married 38 years, we started tithinggiving 10% of our income, ah, to the Lord, and to the Lord’s work.

Arroyo: Biblical principle.

Warren: And we decided each year we would raise out tithe. Now, nobody told us to do this; we just wanted to be more generous. Every time I give, I break the grip of materialism. The way you get rid of “getting”, is giving. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger, and every time I give I become more like Jesus. The Bible says, “God so loved the world that He gave…” So, you can give without loving, but you can’t love without giving. So at the end of our first year we raised our tithe of 11 percent. At the end of the second year to 12; third year we raised it 3 percent. On years that our finances were very tight we’d just raise it a quarter of a percent—when the cupboard was bare, and I was a poor, seminary student. And on years we’d get a raise, or have something happen, we’d raise it 3 or 4 percent. And then over the yearswe’ve been married 38 yearslast year we raised it another percent from 90 to 91. And I’ve been playing this game, or deal with God, for 38 years where God says, “Rick, you give to me, and I’ll give to you, and we’ll see who wins.”

Arroyo: (Laughs)

Warren: I’ve lost it every year.

Arroyo: Oh, that’s amazing.

Warren: And uh, and, uh, th—there’s really—it, eh, a great joy in generosity.

Arroyo: I wanna talk about generosity

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: And this P.E.A.C.E. plan

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: That you implemented.

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Tell people about this, and, that trip to Rwanda in 2005

Warren: Yeah. Exactly. It all started when Kay, ah, was, uh, reading an article on HIV/AIDS. And she saw an article, ah, inI think it was Time or Newsweekthat said 14 million children orphaned by AIDS. And she was sitting on the couch and she said, “I was so shocked that I had to drop thethe ah, magazine.” She said, “I had to realize, I don’t know a single orphan”. She said, “In my bubble of American, suburban life, I don’t know a single orphan.”

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: She says, “In my bubble of American, ah, suburban life, I don’t know a single orphan.” Andandshefelt like the Holy Spirit said to her, “Now Kay, you can do one of two things. You can let this pain into your heart and I’ll make you a spokesman, for vulnerable women, and children, and orphans, and people who have HIV/AIDS. Or you can shut it down and continue as a pastor’s wife, soccer mom, Bible teacher.” My wife’s the most courageous woman I ever have met. And she said, “I don’t under—I don’t know anything about AIDS; but I’m gonna learn about it.”

And so she began to go to Africa, she said, “Because they know more about it than we do.” For instance, we learned more women have AIDS than men. I didn’t know that. Uh, we learned that a lot of babies get AIDS through a mother’s milk. I didn’t know that. And so, uh, while she went to Mozambique and Malawithis was 2003I went to Johannesburg, and I taught in South Africa a Leadership Conference. And so after it was over I said, “Take me out to a village, I wanna see a typical church.” I said, “I don’t care what it is. Evangelical, Pas—Catholic, ah, Lutheran, charismaticit doesn’t matter to me.”

So we go out and we find this little church in a villageno water, no electricity, in the tentand it’s 75 people; 50 adults, 25 kids orphaned by AIDS. And I—I looked at this, and I thought, “This church is doin’ more to help the poor than my rich megachurch in California.” And it was like a knife in my heart, and I said, “That’s gonna change.” And I remember thethe—th—it was 50 adults, and 25 kids orphaned by AIDS—the kids are sleeping in the tent at night. Um, theythey are schooling the kids, they’ve grown a garden to feed the kids. And the young pastor walks around and he—an’ he sees me. Now, he didn’t know I’m coming. An’ he says, “I know who you are.” An’ I said, “How do you know who I am?” He said, “You’re Pastor Rick.” I said, “How do you know who I am?” He said, “I download your free sermon every week.” I said, “Now, you’re in a village with no water and no electricity”

Arroyo: (Laughs)

Warren: “How are you downloading my sermon every week?” He said, “They’re putting the internet in every Post Office.”

Arroyo: Ahhh.

Warren: WARREN:In South Africa, they’re called PITsPublic Information Terminals. He said, “Once a week, I walk an hour and a half to the nearest Post Office. I download your free sermon. I walk an hour back, and I teach it to my people.” He said, “You know Rick, you’re the only training I’ve ever had.”

Arroyo: Huh.

Warren: Ray that was a turning point in my life. I said, “I’ll give the rest of my life for people like that.” And I’ve spent most of the last decade in little villages around the world you’ve never heard of helping these barefoot evangelists, these priests, these pastors, these deacons, these ministers, these Bishops, who are serving faithfully; when I have so much and they have so little.

And out of that we developed the PEACE PlanP-E-A-C-E and it is based on Jesus saying, “When you go in a village, find the man of peace.” And PEACE stands for Plant churches, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation. Now today, I’ve sent 23,869 of my own members overseas to 196 nations; so we’ve done the PEACE Plan in all 196 nations.

Arroyo: Mm. Hmm. You—you—when I—when I look at thisthe sweep of it, when I hear stories from people on the ground

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: In these countries about your work,

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: They all say, “You know, Rick Warren is truly non-denominational”

Warren: (Laughs)

Arroyo: He is focused on Christ”

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Exclusively.”

Warren: If you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.

Arroyo: But that’sbut this is athis is aan anomaly in—in many areas of Christianity—

Warren: Yeah, it isfor many people, yeah

Arroyo: But, what is the obstacle, do you think

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Keeping Christians apart, and away from that unity, that Christ prayed for that John Paul II was such a vocalwell, all the recent Popes

Warren: Absolutely. Every one of them

Arroyo: Have done this outreach

Warren: Every one of them.

Arroyo: “We need to be one.”

Warren: Exactly.

Arroyo: What is keeping these communities apart? And what do you think is bringing them together?

Warren: Well, I think we need to go back to the words of St. Augustine. You know, ah, in the essentials, you know, we have the u—unity

Arroyo: Right.

Warren: In the non-essentials we have liberty

Arroyo: [unintelligible] say, yeah.

Warren: And in all things we show charity. And I—I think this is really true. Now, I think as the world becomes increasinglyparticularly the Western culturemore secular, more anti-Christianwe—we’re seeing, for instance, religious liberties being threatened and things like that, it is really incumbent of all Christiansof every brand and stripethat we join together on the things that we share in common. And— and when I say, “Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?” “Yes.” “Do you believe Jesus Christ rose?” “Yes.” “Do you believe He died on the cross?” “Yes.” “Ah, do you believe in Hell and Heaven?” “Yes.” “Ah, do you believe the Bible is God’s Word?” “Yes.” Then we’re on the same team. We might not agree on all of the minors, but yourw—we are Christians

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: And he—here’s the thingpeople don’t realize how big the church really is. It’s the largest organization on planet earth. We don’t have anything to apologize for; there’s 600 million Buddhists in the world. There are 800 million Hindus in the world. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims; but there’re 2.3 billion Christians who would say, “I believe Jesus is who He claimed to bethe Son of God.” That means 1 out of every 3 people on this planet. The church is bigger than China.

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: The church is bigger than China and India put together. Nothing is bigand we have more outletsI could take you to 10 million villages around the whworld the only thing in it is a church. That’s why there is no global problem, poverty, disease, illiteracy, or whatever, that can be solved without the church.

Arroyo: You recently wrote a piece, let’s talk about this

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: In the Washington Post, about this HHS Mandate

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: And the Supreme Court

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: Argumentsthe oral argumentswe just heard

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: Vis–à–vis this Hobby Lobby case.

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: You know David Green.

Warren: Very well.

Arroyo: Tell me aboutwhat so incenses you about this entire controversy and might it be

Warren: Mm hmm.

Arroyo: Rick Warren

Warren: Mm hmm.

Arroyo: That the church itself—this is controversial

Warren: Yes.

Arroyo: Created this situation; this right to worship because, for so long, they kept their values confined to the four walls of their churches.

Warren: Yes, exactly. Well, there’s a difference between freedom of worship and freedom of religion. Worship is an event that happens inside a house of worship. Uh, religion is a lifestyle. It is a way of living. It is what I base my decisions on at home, at work, and everything else. It’s where it colors everything in my life; the way I educate my kids, the way I do my ethics at work, the way I treat my neighbor. Thethe Constitution does not guarantee freedom of worshipit guarantees freedom of religion. And this is what I call America’s first freedom; because the first phrase of the first sentence of the First Amendment is: “Congress shall make no law concerning, you know, ah, ah, im—imposition on religion.” In other words, freedom of—of religion. America was founded by religious people; devout people who came here because they wanted freedom of religion, It’s what made America different from every other country.

Arroyo: Mm, hmm.

Warren: And so it is our first freedom. It comes before the freedom of speech, it comes before the freedom of the press, it comes before freedom to assembly, it comes before the right to bear arms. Why; because none of these other freedoms matter if you don’t have the freedom to believe and to practice your belief.

Arroyo: Where do you think the Supreme Courts going to go on this?

Warren: Mymy prayerand I believe that the Supreme Court will come down on the side of the First Amendment. You know, I said in that article, that I used to own, ahJefferson had two very famous letters on religious liberty. One was to the Danbury Baptists where he talks about the phrase “separation of church and state.” Now, it’s interesting that phrase today means the exact opposite of what it meant in Jefferson’s days. Today, people think it means keeping religion out of government, or out of politics. But actually the separation of church and state was, we’re going to protect the church

Arroyo: From the government.

Warren: From the government. I believe that religious liberty may be the civil rights issue of the next decade. And if it takes some high profile pastors goin’ to jail over it, like Martin Luther King did over civil rights, I’m in—so be it. I mean, IIas Peter said, and the Apostles said, “we must obey God rather than men.”

Arroyo: Do you think events like this; moments like this, are actually sources of unity, and moments of unityparticularly for Catholics

Warren: Sure.

Arroyo: And evangelicals?

Warren: Sure. Well obviously, we have so much in common uh, in protecting, ah, our religious rights. Andand really the religious rights of other people who we disagree with on beliefs and behaviors. Um, Muslims for instance, don’t drink alcohol. If all the sudden they made a law that said, “Every Muslim, uh, restaurant has to serve alcohol.” I would be there protesting with that. If they made a law that said, “Every Jewish deli in New York City has to sell pork,”

Arroyo: Right.

Warren: I’m going to be there protesting. I don’t have a problem with pork; but I’m gonna protest that. If they make a law that says, uh, “Every Catholic, uh, school has to provide contraceptives”if you’re morally convinced you shouldn’t have contraceptivesI stand with you, firm with you, on your belief on that, because you have a right to change your chiltrain your children the way you want to.

Arroyo: Hmm. The Vatican recently sent a delegation here

Warren: They did.

Arroyo: To Saddleback.

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: The Pontifical Council—or the Academy for Life, rather

Warren: The Academy for Life, exactly.

Arroyo: Tell me what they discovered, and why did they come? This was athis was a sizable group.

Warren: It was. There were about 30 Bishops from Europe. Um, one of the men who had been, ah, actually trained and mentored by Jean Vanier.

Arroyo: Oh.

Warren: Which is an interesting thing because we have a Retreat Center here and my spiritual director, uh who grew up at Saddleback, actually, ah, went and trained under Jean Vanier, too.

Arroyo: Oh.

Warren: So I’m very excited about that. Um, but they were talking about the New Evangelization; an’ Saddleback, ah, has been very effective in reaching the secular mindset. Our church, ah, is 33 years oldEaster 20 and, ah, 14 at Saddleback is, ah, our 34th anniversary. And in 34 years, we’ve baptized 38,000 adults. Now, these are adult converts, people of no religious background. People who say, “I was nothing before III came to Saddleback.” So we figured out a way to reach that mindset and I fully support the Catholic Church’s New Evangelization, which basically says, “We’ve got to re-evangelize people who are Christian in name, but not in heart.”

Arroyo: Right.

Warren: Andand they need aa new fresh, uh, relationship to our Savior.

Arroyo: When you mentioned, um, baptizing all these people

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: There is a great story that presages this recent work of yours

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: The Daniel Plan.

Warren: (Laughs) Yes, that’s right.

Arroyo: Ah, tell me about that—this Daniel Plan

Warren: You heard that?

Arroyo: Oh, yes. This is at the top of the New York Times bestseller list

Warren: That’s hilarious.

Arroyo: It is ait’s 40 days

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: To really a new life.

Warren: Yeah, it exactly is.

Arroyo: Tell me about that, and, how baptisms led you to this point.

Warren: That’s funny. Well, it’s really funny because I have always been blessed with an enormous amount of energy. And so, I didn’t take care of my health at all. And I really didn’t care how I looked; and soit wasn’t of valueso I—I just didn’t take care of my body. I wasI have to say—I was a poor steward of it. And, one day we were doing a baptism after a particularly large membership class and, uh, I baptized 864 people in a row. Now, we have itwe do it the old fashioned wayI put ‘em under water, so I literally felt the weight of America’s obesity problem

Arroyo: (Laughing)

Warren: In my hands.

Arroyo: Quite literally.

Warren: That’s about 150,000 pounds. if you figure 150 pounds a personand uh, an—and so, along about number 500, I’m taking the person, putting them under waterdrawbringing them back out; a thought went through my mind Ray, and it wasn’t a very spiritual thought for a pastor—

Arroyo: (Laughing)

Warren: Doing baptism. (laughs) The thought was, “Wow! We’re all fat.” (laughs)

Arroyo: Really (laughs).

Warren: My second thought was, “But I’m fat, too.”

Arroyo: (Laughing)

Warren: And I’m a terrible example of this. And I can’t expect our people to get in shape, anand be healthy for the Lord, if I’m not healthy for the Lord”. So the following Sunday I stood up in front of 25,000 people and I said, ah, “Folks, ah, I’ve only gained two or three pounds a year; but I’ve been your pastor for 30 years.” (laughs)

Arroyo: (Laughing) Oops!

Warren: So I said, “I need to lose about 90 pounds.” You could have heard the sucking of the air out of th—the congregation that day. And I said, “Does anybody want to join me on this?” Now, I figured maybe 200 people would sign up. 12,000 signed up that day.

Arroyo: Wow.

Warren: Ah, another 3,000 by the end of the week15,000. So now I go, “Wow, I’ve got a problem, ‘cause I’m not responsible, just for my health, but for 15,000 who’ve just entrusted me.” So I went and III—I re—recruited a well-known heart specialist, a well-known brain specialist, and a well-known metabolism specialist, and said, “You guys have gotta help me.” We put together a plan; we named it after Daniel in the Old Testament where he says, “I’m gonna eat the good food, you eat the junk food”and by the way, the first year of the church, that we were on the plan, our members lost 250,000 pounds

Arroyo: Wow.

Warren: A quarter of a million pounds; and it is very exciting. Churches all over America are now picking up on The Daniel Plan and uh, there’s a curriculum that they can do in small groups. There’sthere’s a—a diet plan, a health plan, finance

Arroyo: And that small group, support, and the prayer, is really at the center of this. I mean there’s the diet, there’s the activity—but this—

Warren: Yeah, in fact

Arroyo: Is really the support.

Warren: Wh—what we learned is that people get healthier. Peopleactually in the first year

Arroyo: Mm, hmm.

Warren: Lost twice as much mateweightthose who were in a group, that those who did it on their own.

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: There’s the power of community.

Arroyo: Tell me about, yourthe little “breather” you take in the day when you watch television

Warren: (Laughing)

Arroyo: Which surprised me. When we first met, you came up to me and said, “Hey, Raymond Arroyo!” And I said, “I can’t believe you watch this show!”

Warren: You know what, I’m an avid fan of EWTN. I—I make no bones about it. I probably watch it more than any Christian channel

Arroyo: Why?

Warren: Because I happen to likewell, you know what; because you have moremore, uh, uh, uh, shows that relate to history.

Arroyo: Uh huh.

Warren: And—and, whai—i—if you don’t understand the roots of our faiththat God has been working for 2,000 years, regardless of what brand of believer you are, God has been working for 2,000 years in His church. And if you don’t have those roots you’re like the cut flower syndrome; or you’re tumbleweed. Uh, ah, one of my favorite shows, ah, which you repleat [sic] often, is that—th—“The Chaplet of the Divine Mercy.”

Arroyo: Really?

Warren: Which, uh, I love. And when I’ve had a very stressful day, I’ll come homeI’ve got it taped, and Kay and Iwe’ll both listen. We’ll put it on and just sit back, relax, worship, andandin that—in that time of reflection, meditation, quietness, I find myself renewed and restored. So, thank you for keepcontinuing to replay “The Chaplet of Divine Mercy.”

Arroyo: Thank Mother Angelica.

Warren: Ah, thank you Mother Angelica.

Arroyo: Wh—When—When I walked into your office here I was struckyou have three images and personal notes

Warren: Yes.

Arroyo: That confront the person walking into your office, which I have to say, was a lot smaller and more humble than I ever thought

Warren: (Laughs)

Arroyo: I thought we’d get this spacious, palatial office

Warren: Yeah, yeah. I’m not much into bling.

Arroyo: It’s a very humble office. And there is Mother Theresa

Warren: Yeah.

Arroyo: Martin Luther King

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: And Billy Graham.

Warren: Right.

Arroyo: Why those three? What do they give you? And what have they given you?

Warren: Well, th—th—the only one thing—the only that was missing was Pope John Paul II. Those four people, were the greatest influences on the 20th century; without a doubt.

Arroyo: Mm, hmm.

Warren: Without a doubt.

Arroyo: Mm,hmm.

Warren: And uh, each of them represent, uh, lessons that I’ve tried to learn. Ah, Mother TheresaI had the privilege of writing the forward to a book honoring the 100th anniversary of her birthday, and she wrote me thatthere’s that note in there

Arroyo: Yeah.

Warren: That says, ah, “Be holy for God is holy and He loves you.” And, Mother Theresa, uh, taught the world that the face of Jesus is seen in the poor; that we need the poor. Notnot only do the poor need us, we,need, the poor. And God has chosen, ah—”does God have favorites?” Yes, He does. He loves the poor. There are over 2,000 verses on the poor in the Bible and, uh, God ca-uh—God says, “You care about the poor; I’ll care about you, and your—your needs.” So, Mother Theresa taught that.

Billy Graham was one of my nine mentors. Ah, all of my mentors have now passed on to heaven except Billyhe’s 95, I went to his 95th birthday, Billy Graham taught me how to be a Christian statesman. He taught me how to relate to people of different faiths; relate to world leaders, and, ah, he also taught me about how to maintain moral integrity. And the Billy Graham Association created a list of things that they said, “We will not do.” And I copied that and expanded it, 33 years ago, and everybody on my staff signs it.

Martin Luther King, uh, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham, each teach humility, integrity, generosity. They teach, ah, ah, values; and being willing to—to, uh, to suffer for your faith.

Arroyo: Do you find it difficult being identified as “America’s Pastor?”

Warren: (Laughing)

Arroyo: Is there a weight of—of having that moniker attached to what you do day in and day out?

Warren: Well, i—i—it, ah, means nothing to me. II don’t, you know, Iwhat people wanna say is really up to them. What really matters to me is the individual; and uh, ifif notoriety allows me to—sa—to influence people and point them to Jesusthat’s what it’s all about. You know Ray, when I wrote Purpose Driven Life, I wanted to start this book with the most counter culture statement I could possibly think of—Ok—

Arroyo: (Laughing) You found it.

Warren: Yeah, and—and, you know, an—an—an—so, I chose the phrase “It’s not about you.”

Arroyo: (simultaneously with Warren) Not about you, yeah.

Warren: The forward march. It’s, not, about, you. And really that’s like a slap in the face in the “me” generation where everything our culture says is, “It’s all about you.” Okay, it’s all about me; how I look, how I feel, what I want to do, it’s my life, it’s my body, ah, it’s my, you know, money. And when I say, “It’s not about you,” it’s really about the most counter culture thing you could say. What I didn’t know (long pause) was how often I was gonna be tested on thaton that statement once I said it.

Arroyo: Mmm.

Warren: It’s not about you. And, I often have to say that phrase eight or nine times a day.

Arroyo: Hmm.

Warren: When I’m criticized, unfairly; it’s not about you. When I’m praised, I say, “It’s not about you.” When people misunderstand meit’s not about you. When people, ah, challenge me, or question, my motivationit’s not about you. And I have to say that I had no idea how many times God was gonna test me on that the rest of my life.

Arroyo: Now, are you sorry you wrote it? No

Warren: Not at all.

Arroyo: Thank you, Rick Warren.

Warren: Thank you, Ray; and God bless all, ah, EWT, ah, viewers and, thank you Mother Angelica for having a vision. Ah, a spry little woman who said, “It can be done” when everybody said, “It couldn’t be done.” Aa tower of faith.

Arroyo: I agree. Thank you.

Warren: Thank you.

Arroyo: I wanna thank Pastor Rick Warren and his team at Saddleback for granting us the interview. If you missed Part One, of the interview, it’s online. I’ve linked it on my Facebook page, and on Twitter, @RaymondArroyo

Further reading


  1. According to Thom Rainer, who is the president and CEO of the SBC’s LifeWay Christian Resources: http://thomrainer.com/2013/03/26/the-15-largest-protestant-denominations-in-the-united-states/, accessed 5/20/14.
  2. See: Billy Graham’s Apostasy Is Older Than You Think.
  3. I have documented this particular apostasy for you many time previously, e.g. Southern Baptists Assist the Roman Catholic Church to Infiltrate Evangelicalism. It’s ok though, as a former Roman Catholic and SBC pastor myself, for now, I don’t mind continuing to do so.
  4. In fact, as I show you in SBC Pastor’s Conference 2014 with Rick Warren, Francis Chan, and James MacDonald, far from it; as the SBC has actually rewarded Rick Warren in having him as a key note speaker for that major conference next month.
  5. I’ve previously walked you through how the prophet-pastor operates, e.g. in Indoctrinateing Children into the Cult of Steven Furtick?
  6. I’ve pointed out, e.g. in Evangelical Ecumenical magisterium Member Steven Furtick with an Ode to Self, that ever since the ignominious Elephant Room (ER) of James MacDonald, and his partner in spiritual crime Mark Driscoll, we’ve seen the participants—and their various comrades—uniting. So, for a couple of years now I’ve been discussing with you what sure appears to me to be a new Evangelical Ecumenical Magisterium (EEM) that’s been growing up around that ER of MacDonald and Driscoll. In 2010 I showed you in Rick Warren Brings Love On RecordI how Warren laid the foundation for this EEM. And, you’ll see a list containing the names of even more of these “vision casting” EEM prophet-pastors that I cover on a regular basis in Dr. Ronnie Floyd Teaching WF Fables From Robert Morris.