Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. (Proverbs 8:6-9)

Apostasy Has Spread Deeply Into The Evangelical Camp

It seemed good in the Lord to offer the following exchange I had with Todd Ramsey in the comments section of Slice of Laodicea for your edification as to the types of arguments you will run into as you defend the historic orthodox Christian faith today. There is a man-centered sentimental backlash against proper doctrine in the Church of our Lord today. Years of wishy washy teaching from cowardly compromisers has almost literally done away with the Reformation itself. And in this piece I’ll also talk a bit about CRBC: Mission Rob Bell.

In regard to this attempt to reverse the Reformation you will still see the Book of Jude in the Bible. Note carefully the b part of verse 3 – Beloved, while I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation , I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints (NASB). I’ve pointed out before that the Greek for “contend earnestly” is the compound word used to describe the struggling of the wrestlers in the ancient Olympics. So, what are we contending for, struggling with and wrestling about concerning this historic orthodox Christian faith?

Unity at all costs? I think not. Whew, that’d be a tough fight, wouldn’t it? No, the Master, Christ Jesus, already told His true disciples what we are to always expect until He returns:

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated Me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of My Name, for they do not know the One who sent Me.” (John 15:18-21)

The religious establishment persecuted Jesus then and the apostate Idol of Evangelicalism will persecute us now. Be prepared for it beloved of God as the longer the Lord tarries the wider this apostasy is going to spread and the more aggressive will be their hatred for Christ living in you because He does not dwell within them. The battle is now on and the Devil has always known right where to attack. I tell you in the Lord you had best decide where you stand in relation to the doctrines of grace because this is exactly where Satan has hammered in his wedge.

You Need To Recognize The Time In Which You Live

As an example of the kind of attack to expect, and this no matter how loving you try and be, I’m going to reproduce the following exchanges between Todd and myself which otherwise may have gotten lost in the comments section at Slice. For those who do belong to Jesus and are all caught up in the enemy’s snare of sappy sentimentality I sincerely pray you’ll hear the mighty Voice of your Great Shepherd within my tiny voice. Right now I encourage you to ask the Lord to open your eyes so you might see the dark red sky this morning and recognize the time in which you live.

I am afraid this is only the beginning and should the Master tarry things are going to get mighty rough spiritually in the days ahead. One of the other benefits of this work is a chance to clarify a bit and answer a couple of questions some of the new arrivals to Apprising Ministries through the Wikipedia entry on Rob Bell may have concerning my writing as well. For instance I was delighted when Todd inquired how this all affects my local fellowship Connecticut River Baptist Church. Although as you’ll see his tone was often sarcastic it did nevertheless give me a chance to speak a bit about what we call “CRBC Company.”

This little church had been through much prior to my becoming their pastor a couple of years ago. It’s a wonderful testimony to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to His little flock that is CRBC and also to their own faithful tenacity not to give up through many twists and turns. Long story short we have come to understand that in this intensifying spiritual war CRBC Company is a small platoon of warriors who through our internet arm of AM are involved in getting supplies of fresh teachings as ammunition to those brothers and sisters trapped behind enemy lines and even to those on the frontlines of what Dr. John MacArthur has rightly called “The Truth War.”

In this article I also commend this unit of less than a dozen for standing with their pastor and his wife as I take some pretty heavy fire from enemy guns. I know if they could they’d gladly supply a parsonage, insurance, a salary which could support us, etc. But still they are there for us and have been willing to learn some very difficult teachings in order to prepare for our local mission when go on an offensive and bring the genuine Gospel right into the heart of the enemy’s heavily fortified Roman Catholic community in which God has placed us.

And all the while these soldiers of the Cross know that our biggest opposition is going to come from the nearly completely apostate evangelical camp in Claremont, NH. Which brings me nicely to this first exchange with Todd that came in reference to my article Rob Bell: “Trampolinianity and the Virgin Birth. He had apparently taken offense to some of my phraseology because he doesn’t yet understand the egregious errors taught by Bell and other false teachers in the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church:

“this candy-coated Christian comedian wannabe” Very loving Ken. Very loving. You said: “Jesus would not have been able to die for anyone else’s sins because this Jesus would have been a sinner himself. And on top of that a human man could not die for the sins for another because sin is committed against God, so only God Himself could die for the forgiveness of sins committed against Him. Take away the Virgin Birth and we only have a mortal man with a sin nature who could never have saved anybody.”

So, you believe in original sin and you want to limit God’s power over His creation? Perhaps I’m only taking one paragraph that you’ve ever written and applying unfair judgments on your orthodoxy? At least I’m not alone. Commence “You know nothing of what you speak” talk.

Posted by: Todd at December 7, 2006 02:59 PM

My response:

Todd,

You say: “ ‘this candy-coated Christian comedian wannabe’ Very loving Ken. Very loving.” Read Luke 3:7-9, same principle in dealing with those reprobates who would dare adulterate God’s Word like Rob Bell.

Then you ask: “So, you believe in original sin and you want to limit God’s power over His creation?” Don’t you? And no, I go by what the text of the Bible says. Emergent vipers like Bell limit God’s power over His creation.

Then you say: “Perhaps I’m only taking one paragraph that you’ve ever written and applying unfair judgments on your orthodoxy?” That paragraph you cited is orthodox.

You said: “At least I’m not alone.” Um, does that make you right? I’m hardly the only one challenging the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church…so, I’m right then.

Finally: “Commence ‘You know nothing of what you speak’ talk.” Well Todd, you said it. Works for me…

Posted by: Pastor Ken Silva at December 7, 2006 04:21 PM

Here’s Todd’s reply:

Ken,

No, I don’t believe in original sin. I believe Ez. 18:1-4 has a nice little take on God’s view of the issue. Verse 20 in the same chapter says it quite well: “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” But, as you are wont to say, perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

You say: “Emergent vipers like Bell limit God’s power over His creation.” I’m curious what examples you have of such leaders limiting God?

You say: “Um, does that make you right? I’m hardly the only one challenging the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church…so, I’m right then.” My point, is that you’re creating an argument against Bell’s entire belief system on a single selection, completely ignoring his following paragraph, as stated by Brad. THAT is a flawed argument. (I thought that my argument was flawed as well, but I failed to realize that you were a Calvinist.)

Finally you say: “Well Todd, you said it. Works for me…” I hope that you’re being funny or sarcastic here, because engaging with any type of dialog with you becomes increasingly frustrating as you attempt to demean or belittle those with whom you disagree. So much for “iron sharpening iron” eh?

Posted by: Todd at December 7, 2006 04:45 PM

To which I responded:

Todd,

You said: “No, I don’t believe in original sin… But, as you are wont to say, perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.” That’s the best I can do because I have many other duties and simply haven’t time to continue this. Good luck trying to deny original sin with our Savior.

You ask: “I’m curious what examples you have of such leaders limiting God?” Tons of them in my Emergent archive here. Help yourself:

https://www.apprising.org/archives/emergent_church/index.html

You say: “My point, is that you’re creating an argument against Bell’s entire belief system on a single selection, completely ignoring his following paragraph, as stated by Brad.” This is totally fallacious, see my Bell archive:

https://www.apprising.org/archives/rob_bell/index.html

Then you say: “but I failed to realize that you were a Calvinist.”
But I’m not.

Finally: “engaging with any type of dialog with you becomes increasingly frustrating as you attempt to demean or belittle those with whom you disagree. So much for ‘iron sharpening iron’ eh?”
Todd, meaning no disrespect but I am a pastor-teacher who has done a teaching. You’d be better served by trying to read it, measure it by Scripture, and praying about it. I dialogue as I have time but I’m fed up, and more importantly God is fed, with the disrespect the Lord’s ministers are shown by arrogant Emergents. I do pray this isn’t you.

Posted by: Pastor Ken Silva at December 7, 2006 05:18 PM

Respect Those Who Work Hard Among You

Here is the second exchange which concerns Rob Bell: Trampolinianity Hits A Brick Wall and this one centers around Todd’s having no idea of what I am trying to accomplish with Mission Rob Bell, and yet finding no difficulty in attempting to tell another servant of God what he should be doing. Although this is always misunderstood by those who love man over God, the fact is that not everyone is called to be a pastor-teacher. I’m the first to say take up your Bible and test what I say, but even the Bereans of Acts 17:11 then submitted themselves to the authority of the Word they were taught.

Yet today in arrogant America almost no one thinks anything of simply dismissing the teachings of elders and pastors Christ has sent forth. Let’s take the issue of Dr. John MacArthur, whom I mentioned earlier, as one quick example. Dr. MacArthur has been placed by the Lord Himself into a prominent position within the Body of Christ. And even though I am a pastor-teacher myself I wouldn’t even dream of saying to him the kinds of things people say to me on a daily basis. But what should I expect; so many people around impudent Emergent circles mock him as well by calling this man of God – “Johnny Mac.”

And so we return to what Todd had to say about my service to the Body of Christ as it relates to Pastor-pretender Rob Bell. Please keep in mind here that no one made Todd comment, he just apparently felt he needed to:

Ken, I just did a rough count of the number of articles on your website dedicated to Rob Bell. 51 articles equals a lot of time and energy.

May I ask what kind of pastor you are and what kind of church you shepherd? They must be very gracious to allow you to devote so much time and energy refuting a single pastor.

At what point does one say “Enough is enough?” This pastor is beyond redemption, those who listen to him are as sheep being led to the slaughter and the churches that associate with him are going to have to answer for it on judgment?

I only ask because I have been slapped with the realization this morning that I have spent more time arguing with you on this blog than I have fulfilling my Matt. 25 responsibility.

So, upon review of your response, I will be done with comments for a while. And there was great rejoicing.

Posted by: Todd at December 8, 2006 12:10 PM

This was my response for his review:

Todd,

You say: “I just did a rough count of the number of articles on your website dedicated to Rob Bell. 51 articles equals a lot of time and energy.” Indeed it does, I wonder how many sermons Jesus preached about the leaven of the Pharisees and the Herodians and the Sadducees in His three years of ministry.

Bell happens to be a HUGE threat to petrifying evangelical churches with their spiritualy obtuse leadership, not to mention rabbi Rob is the most recognizable teacher within the new cult of liberalism…so, think with me now…refuting his teachings…will what; then help people to refute a whole lot more of these vipers than just ol’ Rob, huh.

You ask: “what kind of pastor you are and what kind of church you shepherd? They must be very gracious to allow you to devote so much time and energy refuting a single pastor.” O, yes you sure may! I love to tell people about my little flock of soldiers of the Cross of Jesus Christ. CRBC Company loves what they see me doing and they are all becoming involved in Apprising Ministries in different ways themselves.

Why, I guess in the Lord’s eyes that would make me a bond-slave worthy of nothing who’s doing only what he is supposed to do. Feed my local flock and then build them up for the works of ministry. Actually they have told me that the Lord is encouraging them through the effort they see me demonstrate for the cause of our Lord. Thanks for asking.

Then you reveal a bit of ignorance as to what I’m doing: “At what point does one say ‘Enough is enough?’ This pastor is beyond redemption, those who listen to him are as sheep being led to the slaughter and the churches that associate with him are going to have to answer for it on judgment?” See above; and also realize new people come to my site every single day who’ve never heard any of this. Suggestion: Don’t like it; don’t read it. :-)

Then you say: “I only ask because I have been slapped with the realization this morning that I have spent more time arguing with you on this blog than I have fulfilling my Matt. 25 responsibility.” I do hope you don’t seriously think I’m to blame for that, do you? If this is what God has shown you, then I suggest you act on it.

For one thing, you might quit trying to give me advice when I’m already doing what I have been called by Christ to do. O, that there were more ministers who weren’t sitting on the fence as cowards just watching these Emergent wolves in sheep’s clothing like Rob Bell chew up their local flocks.

Finally: “So, upon review of your response, I will be done with comments for a while. And there was great rejoicing.” Todd, I am fine with this decision…and remember…you said it. ;-)

Posted by: Pastor Ken Silva at December 8, 2006 12:27 PM

The Aftermath

And lest anyone feel I was unfair to post this rather informative exchange here is what Todd himself said about it at another website that shall go nameless here:

It was almost amusing to dialog with Ken as he took people’s and my comments apart piece by piece, arguing nuances and inconsistencies rather than ideas.

So as you can see from this comment it seems that Todd never had any real intention of dialoguing with an open mind as to what someone like myself as a pastor might be able to teach him. And this again is a good illustration of the actual intent of this so-called emerging “conversation,” it is most decidedly one way.

The absolute Truth is that barring God the Holy Spirit penetrating the smug Emergent arrogance there is simply no hope of fruitful discussion with someone who simply will not listen. But then again that’s what this Emergent rebellion against the Word of God is all about, a know-it-all spiritual fourteen-year-old who pouts: “I wanna follow Jesus, but I wanna do it my way!”